Han Solo is Joe Strummer and John Lennon

(On January 10th, Liz and LJ talked on the phone for two hours about Star Wars: The Force Awakens, our new favorite movie. Here's a transcript of KyloRenCon 2016, with beautiful binary-sunset illustration by Jen May. P.S. CONTAINS SPOILERS, kind of!)

LIZ: Why did you like Star Wars so much?

LJ: Great question! Because it was the best movie ever. I was just taken on a ride. Matt King and I went to see it on New Year's Eve day and I was jazzed to see an entertaining movie in a movie theater and drink a Diet Coke and have popcorn and Snickers bites- so I went in with a positive attitude, but I was also afraid I might just think it was boring. And I thought I might hate BB-8. But as soon as it happened I was just so into it. I loved all the characters so much. I wanted to be in that world with them forever; I wanted to know all of them and exist with them. I liked that it was sort of camp - like how it played a very ham-fisted homage to the aesthetic of the original three, but with a cool 2015 twist. So yeah, I basically loved everything about it. Why did you like it so much?

LIZ: It's funny- I went to see it with my brother for the first time, a couple days after I got home for Christmas, like the Sunday of opening weekend. And we sat down in the theater and I realized I hadn't thought at all about whether I would like it or not. I just somehow completely avoided having any expectations. When I was little Star Wars was my number-one thing. Like I had this record that was all just dialogue from Return of the Jedi and I listened to it all the time in first grade-

LJ: Was it like a best-of album?

LIZ: Yeah, it was Best of Return of the Jedi. No- it was like one of those kids' books where you put a record on and read along with the book and it tells you when to turn the page. But I just listened to the record, every single day as soon as I got home from school. So I really liked Star Wars is my point. In Rolling Stone there was a cover story on Star Wars and Mark Hamill was like, "If you're 38-years-old and you think this movie's gonna make you feel like you're 10 again, dream on!" And I was like, "But I'm 38-years-old, Mark Hamill! And it did make me feel like I was 10 again!"

LJ: Why would he say such a thing? That's not true at all.

LIZ: Because he's weird. Mark Hamill's just this weird guy.

LJ: Did you know he's really good friends with the Davies brothers? I found that out when I was home. And I was like, "Which one is he better friends with?"

LIZ: It has to be Dave.

LJ: No, I think he's like equally good friends with both of them! My friends and I were looking at all these tweets that the trio of them had tweeted to each other, and I feel like if you asked Mark Hamill "Which one of the Davies brothers are you better friends with?", he'd be like, "I couldn't say! They're both equally good friends of mine!" And that's so weird. But yeah, it's probably Dave. Mark Hamill wishes it was Ray.

(No good pictures of Mark Hamill + the Kinks exist, but here's a picture of Mark Hamill & Debbie Harry & Iggy Pop) 

LIZ: I'd forgotten how in love with Mark Hamill I was when I was little. He was my first love.

LJ: What about Han Solo?

LIZ: I love him, but I was in love with Mark Hamill. And in the movie, that last moment of him - oh my god I died.

LJ:  I'm definitely more of a Han-centric girl. Clearly Han is the John and Luke is the Paul.

LIZ: I don't feel like Luke is much of a Paul. I think he's a George. He's serious. The Dagobah System is his India.

LJ: What I mean is that obviously a Paul fan would like Luke Skywalker and a John fan would like Han Solo. Han Solo is a John.

LIZ: Who was your favorite?

LJ: My favorite was Han Solo in a major way. I loved everything about Harrison Ford's performance. I was absolutely delighted by him. In my head I was like, "That's what you're like, Laura."

LIZ: Who's the Chewbacca of your life?

LJ: I guess Matt King. He's by my side, being stoic and fun. But I'm also just a big Oscar Isaac fan. Although I don't like saying that character's name out loud.

LIZ: Poe Dameron?

LJ: Yeah. I don't think Poe is an acceptable name for an adult male. But I liked him. I loved at the end when he was piloting and just so in his element, being the best pilot in the galaxy. Who's your favorite?

LIZ: I'm pretty into Kylo Ren. Good ol' Kylo ren. All my guy friends are really not into Kylo Ren. One of them was like, "I didn't want him to take the mask off. I didn't wanna see Adam Driver's face!"

LJ: That's the exact opposite of how I felt. I was worried at the beginning that we weren't ever going to see Adam Driver's face.

LIZ: But we did and it was perfect.

LJ: It was beautiful. A great thing. My thing I like to say about Adam Driver is he's got the X factor. You can't put your finger on it.

LIZ: He's so strange. He's so boring in interviews. It's like he has no inner life. But I'm like, "You obviously have a very rich inner life, 'cause you're fucking weird, you're so weird!"

LJ: I feel like he's really serious about acting. He might just kind of suck in real life 'cause he's so into acting.

LIZ: The weirdest thing about him to me is he joined the Marines after September 11th. That's the strangest thing I can think of for any person to ever do.

LJ: But he was only like 18 at the time. We all make weird decisions when we're young. But I guess none that are so intensely misaligned with who I perceive Adam Driver to be.

LIZ: I re-watched the first season of Girls recently to get some more Adam Driver into my life, and he's really not very attractive for most of it.

LJ: I don't like him in Girls. I like him in everything except Girls. I feel like his character in Girls is the worst person I could possibly imagine. I fell in love with him in Inside Llewyn Davis. He stole the movie.

LIZ: I wasn't gonna see that, but then you texted me and said to watch "Please Mr. Kennedy," and then I knew I had to.

LJ: It's a really important piece of information to pass on. I, like, listen to "Please Mr. Kennedy."

LIZ: Yeah, I have it on my phone.

LJ:  I listen to it to get hyped for work.

LIZ: I listened to it at the gym today.

LJ: I listened to it on Wednesday for my first day back to work. It's light but also invigorating.

LIZ: I like that it's them and then stupid Justin Timberlake being so Justin Timberlake-y. I'm so glad he didn't get to be in Star Wars but Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac did.

LJ: Justin Timberlake is so boring. He's such a basic. He's like King Basic, with his dumb wife and his stupid baby named Silas. Jessica Biel posted a selfie holding the baby and wearing a baseball cap, and I have never related to any person less in my life.

LIZ: Yeah. There's really no mystique there.

LJ: But so yeah, Adam Driver is fabulous in Star Wars. I was having this conversation about how if you were a polygamist and had four husbands and you could choose any four husbands in the world, I would definitely choose Adam Driver as one of my four. I feel like he would bring a lot to the table. And I'm sure he'd just be automatically be up for it.

LIZ: Last year Ray from Girls lived next door to me for a little while, and I'd tell people "That guy from Girls is living next door to me," and they'd always say, "Who, Adam Driver?" And I'd be like, "No, obviously not Adam Driver! If Adam Driver was living next door to me, I'd just be running around yelling about Adam Driver all the time." My hope for Star Wars is that Kylo Ren will fall in love with Rey. But then I kind of feel like they're brother and sister.

LJ: Or cousins.

LIZ: Related in some way. But I really like the idea of a love triangle. That's my thing.

LJ: But what if instead they introduce a weird dark love interest for Kylo Ren? Just some cool bad-ass chick who did weird evil with him, and they were just happy and in a functional relationship and had really similar interests? And she was really cool and well-styled and gothy.

LIZ: I guess that could work.

LJ: What about Finn?

LIZ: I'm not in love with Finn.

LJ: I loved him so much while I was watching it, but he hasn't really stood the test of time in my head.

LIZ: He's not super-dynamic.

LJ: He's the Ringo.

LIZ: He is. I was trying to Beatles-ify everyone in Star Wars and I couldn't get too far.

LJ: I think Rey could be Paul and Kylo Ren could be John.

LIZ: [laughs]

LJ: What, why are you laughing? It's normal.

LIZ: I just like the idea of John Lennon being this evil force, bringing destruction to the entire galaxy.

LJ: But it's accurate! He has weird daddy issues. He can't deal. He's just crying out for help in all the wrong ways.

LIZ: Did John Lennon have a bad temper?

LJ: Yes.

LIZ: Oh right, 'cause he beat people up and stuff. That would indicate a bad temper.

LJ: Yeah, that's the tell. But really he was probably more of a loose cannon than anything.

LIZ: But Paul's not very heroic. I feel like John Lennon is more heroic than Paul.

LJ: I don't feel like that at all. I feel like Paul McCartney is the most heroic person ever.

LIZ: Why, what did he ever do?

LJ: I don't know- be Paul McCartney?

LIZ: I guess. But I just feel like being Paul McCartney comes really easily to him. Like I was listening to Dave Grohl talk about hanging out with Paul and he said how they went into a restaurant or something and everybody freaked out about Paul, and then they went somewhere else and everyone freaked out about Paul there too. And Dave Grohl was like, "Don't you ever get sick of it?" and Paul's like "Of course not! I'm Paul! This is what I do!" So he's probably never an asshole to people. So I guess that's nice of him.

LJ: Yeah, he's grateful. But he's also probably annoyingly pragmatic about it. Like, "Well, it's just part of the job! I'm just like anyone else: I have a job!" But I think he's a hero. He's your hero.

LIZ: He's not my hero. I love him very much, but he's not my hero. He's more of a role model.

LJ: Fair enough. And what would Paul McCartney be like in a crisis? Something that's happened to me a lot lately is I've been seated in the emergency exit row on planes. So at the beginning of the flight the stewardess comes by and talks about my responsibilities and I'm like, "Yeah, no worries!" I'm so excited and I kind of want something to happen so I can be on top of it. When I was flying home this woman on the other side was super-nervous and I interrupted her and was like, "It's okay, I got this." And would Paul McCartney be like that? I don't think so. But John Lennon would want to be the emergency-exit person. Wanting to be a hero is just an extension of wanting to be congratulated for your amazingness. Like you know who else would be great in that situation? Kanye West. What needs to happen is John Lennon and Kanye West and I need to be all seated together and there needs to be a plane emergency, and then we can all control it. But we might just fight with each other. I would actually let Kanye take the bulk of the responsibility. I would just wanna get drunk and keep hanging out with John Lennon.

LIZ: As the plane crashes. That's cool.

LJ: But it wouldn't crash, 'cause Kanye would take care of it. But what if it was me, Paul McCartney, and Kanye West?

LIZ: Who would step up? Paul would have to, because everyone would expect him to and he wouldn't want to let them down.

LJ: Yeah. And he wouldn't be scared.

LIZ: He'd be like, "I'm Paul McCartney- what could possibly happen to me?"

LJ: And there'd be a huge news story.

LIZ: He'd get a medal. A new medal for Paul. Paul has so many medals.

LJ: His most recent medal, for his excellent work in the plane crash that Kanye West also helped out in.

LIZ: I like the point that Rey dresses like Kanye's fashion line. I forget who made that point, but I agree with it.

LJ: I wonder what Kanye thought of Star Wars.

LIZ: I hope he liked it.

LJ: If he didn't it's like, "C'mon, man." He must've liked Kylo Ren's character at least. I feel like he didn't like BB-8 though.

LIZ: But I feel like North would like BB-8, so then he'd have to have a positive BB-8 attitude.

LJ: Yeah, he has to put on a good face for North, about BB-8.

LJ: What about George Harrison? What would he do in the plane crash?

LIZ: He'd calmly assist. He wouldn’t take charge.

LJ: And then Ringo would not be good in the plane crash, I think. He'd be scared. Ringo would be really upset about the plane crashing.

LJ: Tell me some Clash opinions about Star Wars.

LIZ: When I was trying to Beatles-ify everyone I couldn't do it, and then I realized it's because there's no evil in the world of the Beatles. And the Beatles aren't really into fighting for stuff- but the Clash love to fight for stuff.

LJ: That's true; it's their favorite thing.

LIZ: And then I was listening to the Clash and thought, "Any of these songs could be about Star Wars." "Career Opportunities" could be Finn's song. And "Janie Jones" could be Poe Dameron's song, although it doesn't totally work, 'cause he loves his job.

LJ: And then "Rudie Can't Fail" could be the theme song of the Millennium Falcon. It's like always playing as the Millennium Falcon ascends.

LIZ: But there's no Joe Strummer in the world of Star Wars.

LJ: Han Solo is Joe Strummer. Although I guess Han Solo takes life less seriously than Joe Strummer. Maybe Han Solo is all the best parts of Joe Strummer and Mick Jones combined into one hot hottie who I love dearly.

LIZ: Mick Jones is my favorite person. There's really no Mick Jones in Star Wars either.

LJ: The problem with the Clash is only Joe Strummer and Mick Jones have noticeable personalities. Usually you can just figure out who Paul Simonon is by like "Oh, this is the hottest person." I guess Oscar Isaac would be Paul Simonon because they're both beautiful men.

LIZ: And they're really competent. They're hotshots.

LJ: Yeah, competent hotshots. What a great thing to be. No one would ever call me that.

LIZ: Same. But as you said before, Paul Simonons are a rare breed. Paul Simonons don't grow on trees. Paul Simonons aren't a dime a dozen.

LJ: Paul Simonon's too handsome for his own good.

LIZ: And he's still so handsome.

LJ: He's aged miraculously well. No one else has aged that well. The Beatles didn't age that well. John died, but lord knows he would've aged terribly. The Rolling Stones look like shit, the Kinks look like shit, everyone just looks like shit.

LIZ: Yup. It's just Paul Simonon and Robert Redford.

LJ: And Harrison Ford, my new favorite actor. There's this one part where his knee-high boots are just so slick and so elegant. I really had a good think about, "Why has that never been a trend for men?" It's such a hot look.

LIZ: But in real life it would be too Brian Jones.

LJ: It would get ruined quickly. But I just wish that in real life every now and then a few guys would wear a knee-high leather boot. What are you afraid of? What are you so goddamn scared of, men of the world?

(PS: In the middle of trying to find a hot photo of Han Solo's boots, I stumbled upon this Reddit thread entitled "Why are riding boots so female-dominated?"- glad to know someone out there is on the same page as me. -LJ)

LJ: What are you favorite shoes for boys in general?

LIZ: I like a white low-top Converse All-Star. I like work boots. I love Vans.

LJ: Vans are my choice. Lace-up low-top Vans.

LIZ: This guy I used to be friends with who was really good-looking- one day he showed up in gray Dickies and slip-on checkered Vans and a pink and blue tie-dyed t-shirt under a white v-neck cashmere sweater, and it was just the best look I've ever seen in my life. I've been chasing that feeling ever since.

LJ: Yeah, that's really special.

LIZ: When dudes can pull off a v-neck cashmere sweater, that's the best thing in the world.

LJ: Or just a v-neck. A well-executed v-neck. A v-neck can go so wrong on a man and look like the skeeziest thing in the world. Just the smarmiest look.

LIZ: Agree.

LIZ: One of my new favorite people is the redheaded guy. He's Bill Weasley. And his dad is Mad Eye Moody. They're like this whole Harry Potter family.

LJ: That character didn't make much of an impression on me. What did you think about Rey?

LIZ: I didn't identify with her much, but I thought she was chill. She just got shit done. I guess that's a Paul thing: when you get shit done and don't make a big deal about it. Although I guess Paul does make a big deal about things.

LJ: But he convinces you he doesn't, in a weird way. That's his gift.

LIZ: I made my alarm clock the little music that plays when Rey's riding her little sled down the sand hill. So that every morning I can wake up and feel like I'm sledding down a hill.

LJ: Oh, that's smart. What did you think about BB-8?

LIZ: I liked him so much. I thought he was so cute.

LJ: He was really cute. That moment when he gave the thumbs-up I was like, "You got me, BB-8." I liked how Oscar Isaac's character was so nice to BB-8. He took such good care of him. His little buddy.

LIZ: He was so reassuring. BB-8 is Jean Ralphio, by the way. Bill Hader and Jean Ralphio did all BB-8 sounds or whatever.

LJ: That's so great. I love Jean Ralphio, he's my favorite actor. No, he's not, that's a lie. Adam Driver is my favorite actor.

[long interlude about Master of None, what movies are like in London, sweet popcorn vs. normal popcorn, skyr vs. Greek yogurt]

LJ: I wish there was more food in Star Wars.

LIZ: Yeah, I loved Rey's bread, and the weird apples they ate at Lupita Nyong'o's bar.

LJ: But I wish there was a full meal scene where the food was really in-depth. I also wish Wes Anderson would direct a Star Wars movie. And I want Adam Driver to play All Things Must Pass-era George Harrison in the movie version of my book.

LIZ: That's so good! I wonder what music Adam Driver listens to.

LJ: Probably like some lame indie band like…Sleigh Bells, is that a band? Or like Wolf Parade, or Tame Impala. Or the White Stripes. He probably thinks Elephant is a classic album. He's also a big fan of Aphex Twin.

LIZ: But I want him to have like weird '70s-y tastes in things.

LJ: I could see him being into Steely Dan, that kind of vibe. Or CSNY. Everything from CSNY to Daft Punk! That's what Adam Driver likes.

LIZ: I bet he probably listens to no music ever. He's one of those weird psychotic people who doesn't like any music.

LJ: Or maybe he listens to Rachmaninoff. He only listens to concertos.

LIZ: I just re-watched the episode of Girls where he and Hannah are fighting and he goes, "You chase me like I'm the fucking Beatles!" It's like, "Have you ever actually heard the Beatles, Adam Driver?"

LJ: Yeah, what's Adam Driver's Beatles song? Maybe "Only a Northern Song." Or "Helter Skelter"? Or "Rocky Raccoon" even. He's gotta be on the White Album, or he's "Only a Northern Song". I feel like he'd only like early Beatles in some weird way. Like, "I don't really like the White Album, I think A Hard Day's Night is their best work." Some weird opinion like that.

LIZ: He'd be into Beatles for Sale. He could be "Baby's in Black." That's what his cool goth girlfriend would sing for him.

LJ: Do the Beatles exist in Star Wars? No, they don't. But they can. We can make them.

LIZ: What's Poe Dameron's Beatles song?

LJ: Something Paul and catchy, but not too catchy. "I've Just Seen a Face"?

LIZ: I want BB-8 to be "I've Just Seen a Face." That's so cute, BB-8 just speeding along, listening to "I've Just Seen a Face."

LJ: I feel like real-life Oscar Isaac would be "Besame Mucho." But in Star Wars he'd be a different romantic Paul song.

LIZ: "Here, There, and Everywhere"? Not really though.

LJ: I wanna meet the person who's "Here, There, and Everywhere."

LIZ: I feel like the person who's "Here, There, and Everywhere" is too pure a soul for this world.

LJ: Yeah, it's like a monk or something. Poe Dameron could be "Can't Buy Me Love." It's upbeat, so he can listen to it in his plane to rev him up.

LIZ: Someone should be "Hey Bulldog." "Hey Bulldog" is such a Star Wars-y song.

LJ: Han Solo?

LIZ: No. Chewbacca.

LJ: Right, Chewbacca. And Han Solo is "Get Back." Rey is a George song. But a peppier George song. Wait, I actually don't care. What about Princess Leia? We didn't talk about her. I loved her. I loved her and Harrison together.

LIZ: Did you see that Jimmy Fallon Star Wars a cappella thing? Carrie Fisher was cool, she had these weird earrings. I love her too. I want Leia to be "Glass Onion."

LJ: That's accurate. Carrie Fisher is also "Glass Onion." Finn is I don't care. He's something on Sgt. Pepper's. What's Kylo Ren? I think he's-

LIZ: "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."

LJ: He'd be so mad about that! Really he'd be "I Want You (She's So Heavy)," but about world domination.

LIZ: And Luke's current Beatles song is "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," but it's about to be "Back in the U.S.S.R." That's it. The end.


  1. "Who's the Chewbacca of your life?" This is such an important question!

    I wish you could see how much I love reading your posts. I wish there was some way to communicate that visually without just resorting to a thousand exclamation points or lame emoticons. If I didn't hate animated GIFs so goddamn much I'd definitely post one for you here. As it is, a heartfelt thanks and cheers from me to all of you.

    1. thank you, kari! i figured out who my Chewbacca is yesterday and it was really illuminating <3